tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post5000542380858616677..comments2023-10-10T09:50:34.565-07:00Comments on Find and Ye Shall Seek: Intelligence and belief in GodMystical Seekerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-56089107434275005472008-07-04T15:22:00.000-07:002008-07-04T15:22:00.000-07:00uncle« Previous Post | Next Post »Prayer Transform...uncle« Previous Post | Next Post »<BR/>Prayer Transforms Us<BR/>I pray all the time. I do not mean “every minute,” but many times a day.<BR/><BR/><BR/>My understanding and practice of prayer are grounded in my understanding of God, the Sacred. I see God as a presence, as the one “in whom we live and move and have our being,” to quote words attributed to Paul in Acts 17.28. <BR/><BR/>For me, prayer – addressing God, paying attention to my relationship with God – is about reminding me of the reality and presence of God in the course of my day and days. It is about centering more deeply in God and about “opening” to God. It helps me to be more centered, more present, more appreciative.<BR/><BR/>What about prayers in which we ask for something – prayers of petition and intercession? To speak personally (and how else can we speak?), I do not think of God as an interventionist – that God “decides” to answer some prayers. To imagine that God sometimes intervenes leaves all the non-interventions inexplicable. <BR/><BR/>And yet I “do” both petitionary and intercessory prayer. I pray for help for myself. As Anne Lamott remarks in one of her books, the two most genuine prayers are “Help me, help me, help me” and “Thank you, thank you, thank you.” <BR/><BR/>I also pray for help and health and protection for family, friends, and “the world.” Doing so is a natural expression of caring; for me, it would be unnatural not do this. And not to do so because I can’t imagine how it works would be an act of intellectual arrogance – if I can’t imagine how something works, then it can’t work.<BR/><BR/>So I don’t believe that God sometimes intervenes to answer prayer. But this doesn’t prevent me from thinking that prayer sometimes has effects, even though I can’t imagine how. I am very willing to think of other ways of imagining God’s relation to the world, such as speaking of divine intention and divine interaction. At the very least, I am convinced that prayer changes us – that it transforms those who pray. This has been my experience<BR/><BR/>This is what Borg says. It goes beyond "supernatural theism". It indicates, as do many other of his comments, that "God" is a fuzzy concept and he cannot really identify what he thinks "god" is beyond calling it "the sacred"......whatever he really means by that........<BR/><BR/>But, then, who can identify "god" or even if there is one or a hundred.........and, does it really matter?mark gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109453256114630160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-91229190698355522252008-07-04T09:14:00.000-07:002008-07-04T09:14:00.000-07:00Borg is a panentheist who believes in God, and I d...Borg is a panentheist who believes in God, and I doubt that he would call himself anti-theist, although he does reject what he calls "supernatural theism". "Intervention" does not have to refer to a coercively miraculous violation of the laws of physics; it could mean, for example in the case of process theology, divine persuasion. Not that Borg himself has endorsed process theology, but process theology is a form of panentheism as well.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-25267372443093303232008-07-04T08:41:00.000-07:002008-07-04T08:41:00.000-07:00If anti-theism is correct, then Borg has no busine...If anti-theism is correct, then Borg has no business saying that we need to be "born again" in many areas of life and that one cannot accomplish this without the work of the "spirit", although he is, again, fuzzy as to what the "spirit" is..........<BR/><BR/>Such change, if one follows his thoughts, requires intervention as one must have help in achieving change.......<BR/><BR/>Over the years, I have found that anti-theists have generally lacked any sort of experience with "god" or the "sacred" and assume their personal experience to be universal. They follow the logic of the Age of Enlightenment. But, forgetting that the "anti" spirit of that Age was directed against the "god" of Judaism/Christianity.......mark gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109453256114630160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-11954143762857376562008-06-29T15:38:00.000-07:002008-06-29T15:38:00.000-07:00The idea of some kind of "innerconnectedness to th...<I>The idea of some kind of "innerconnectedness to the universe" is completely fuzzy and almost non-sensical. </I><BR/><BR/>I would agree with that, and I don't believe in that notion myself. It is the one area that I disagree with Borg on. It doesn't seem to be of overall importance to his theology, though, so I don't really let myself get hung up on it. The main thrust of Borg's theology, I think, is to reject what he calls a "supernaturally theistic" concept of an interventionist God. This is something that I agree with him on.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-46288853338795648902008-06-29T15:30:00.000-07:002008-06-29T15:30:00.000-07:00Borg had "radical amazement" experiences and came ...Borg had "radical amazement" experiences and came up with a different set of ideas than have others who have had similar experiences.........<BR/><BR/>The idea of some kind of "innerconnectedness to the universe" is completely fuzzy and almost non-sensical. <BR/><BR/>The problem with "god", as I see it is simply the problem associated with the hard, mean, and often cruel "god" as posited in both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures........the "reward and punishment" "god", as identified by Borg and numerous others....<BR/><BR/>Borg simply does not know what the "sacred" that he experienced consists of......but, he is sure it is not the "god" he was raised to believe in......<BR/><BR/>I have experienced the "sacred" and neither do I know either....<BR/><BR/>The whole problem with the statement "do you believe in God" always assumes one means the "god" of Judaism/Christianity/Islam.......the concept of atheism came from a disbelief in their portrayal of "god"........mark gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109453256114630160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-35850405971731103912008-06-26T16:01:00.000-07:002008-06-26T16:01:00.000-07:00MS:The world is full of intelligent people who are...MS:<BR/><BR/><I>The world is full of intelligent people who are not academics.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes. Not only that, but when you consider what kind of people actually end up working in academia, it tends to be people who are very singlemindedly focused on something <I>other</I> than the contemplation of spiritual truth. So it's far too much to expect academics (as a group) to be particularly enlightened with regard to spiritual truth. When you look at it that way, this "study" (or whatever it is) seems like nothing more than a common exercise in stating the obvious.PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-45574498819046088342008-06-26T13:02:00.000-07:002008-06-26T13:02:00.000-07:00I have had too many experiences of seeing such thi...<I>I have had too many experiences of seeing such things to negate the power of prayer, where instant healings did occur. I know there is a lot of "sham" in this area, but I am talking what what I know from actual experience.</I><BR/><BR/>There are some, like Marcus Borg, who believe that certain kinds of healing prayers work, not because a supernaturally theistic God intervenes if we ask him to, but because of some sort of interconnectedness in the universe where we can influence the outcomes of events (somehow). I am not sure how this is supposed to work, and am skeptical of this point of view myself, but I do understand that this is a way of getting around the problem of an interventionist God while still engaging in intercessory prayer.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-89963832976244536752008-06-26T05:49:00.000-07:002008-06-26T05:49:00.000-07:00Intellectually, I agree with you. But, what happe...Intellectually, I agree with you. But, what happens when you actually see healings that are real and you can see it happen right before your very eyes? <BR/><BR/>I have had too many experiences of seeing such things to negate the power of prayer, where instant healings did occur. I know there is a lot of "sham" in this area, but I am talking what what I know from actual experience.<BR/><BR/>There is a "spiritual power" that I realise I cannot explain or perhaps even understand, but I know it is real. I do not, however, say that it only comes through prayer to the religious "god" of either Judaism or Christianity......I cannot accept the view of "god" as posited in either religionmark gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109453256114630160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-25521485488354886212008-06-24T21:58:00.000-07:002008-06-24T21:58:00.000-07:00Prickliest Pear,would also take issue with the imp...Prickliest Pear,<BR/><BR/><I>would also take issue with the implicit assertion that the views of academics as a group are somehow representative of the views of the smartest people in general. Absurd.</I><BR/><BR/>Good point. The world is full of intelligent people who are not academics.<BR/><BR/>Joliene,<BR/><BR/>Well stated. I think that a lot of people who say they are "spiritual" but not religious are really part of what Spong calls the "church alumni society"--people who find themselves drawn to a sense of awe towards a Reality greater than themselves, but they can't necessarily affirm a set of dogmatic propositions that they think they have to accept in order to be considered "religious."Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-53507858553487195042008-06-24T15:11:00.000-07:002008-06-24T15:11:00.000-07:00I agree with your points about IQ tests, which it ...I agree with your points about IQ tests, which it seems to me test a certain kind of intelligence.<BR/><BR/>I commend you for your inclusion of Borg in this article (and Spong, in passing). These are two of my favorite scholars to read about what Christianity means to many of us. It seems to me the the quotation you used from Borg is generally the heart of the argument. I would agree that <I>most</I> (strong empasis) "intelligent" people don't believe in the anthropomorphic daddy-in-the-sky god that sends us economic growth when we are good and fetus-shaped hurricanes when we are bad. Such thinking is selective and absurd. And I think this probably ties in with what you hear from SO MANY people-- "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." This statement, it seems to me, generally means what I think this survey is <I>really</I> putting its finger on-- the reality that most of us cannot believe in that supernatural God, but that we would a little dishonest to say that we are completely Godless... at there very least, there seems to be something beyond coincidence and chance going on, something beyond survival instinct in us, and something more than pure physical interaction in this world.Jolienehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14262706605903368127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-4793058311618607822008-06-24T14:43:00.000-07:002008-06-24T14:43:00.000-07:00I have no doubt that belief in God is lower among ...I have no doubt that belief in God is lower among academics than the general population. So?<BR/><BR/>I agree with the criticisms you suggest, particularly the point about IQ tests (which, of course, are invariably created by academics, and which are therefore going to reflect a bias in favour of a certain kind of intelligence).<BR/><BR/>I would also take issue with the implicit assertion that the views of academics as a group are somehow representative of the views of the smartest people in general. Absurd.<BR/><BR/>The academic world is very conservative, and tends to produce and employ only those people who accept the prevailing orthodoxy -- which, at this point in history, is largely hostile to religion. If you don't accept the various dogmas of postmodernism, you're not likely to pursue a career in academia, and you'll have a rough time of it if you try.PrickliestPearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07606660660913560540noreply@blogger.com