tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post3576359975427797375..comments2023-10-10T09:50:34.565-07:00Comments on Find and Ye Shall Seek: Religious intolerance in NYCMystical Seekerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-58664358226284268082010-05-31T06:49:36.672-07:002010-05-31T06:49:36.672-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-54428469685256208442010-05-31T06:46:28.300-07:002010-05-31T06:46:28.300-07:00And you have made it abundantly clear that you nee...And you have made it abundantly clear that you need to improve your reading comprehension skills.<br /><br />Do you level the same charges against Mulims such as M. Zuhdi Jasser, president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, who oppose the Ground Zero mosque for the very same reasons I outlined? Is he an anti-Muslim bigot bent on tarring an entire faith?<br /><br /> http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/mosque_unbecoming_QmXgG4QyGgz4ATF9v7cBDM#ixzz0pVwzEWFAbdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-58793662451531444962010-05-30T09:55:01.887-07:002010-05-30T09:55:01.887-07:00The truth or the falsity of any of your claims is ...The truth or the falsity of any of your claims is not particularly relevant in this discussion. The issue is whether an entire religion should be tarred based on the actions of a wacko segment of that faith.<br /><br />You have made it abundantly clear, including from your last comment about "salt in the wounds", that you think the answer is yes. Thanks for sharing your point of view.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-8134606023340534352010-05-30T09:21:24.696-07:002010-05-30T09:21:24.696-07:00To add, many Americans vividly remember the specta...To add, many Americans vividly remember the spectacle of witnessing huge throngs of - wait for it - Muslims - rejoicing and dancing in the streets at the news of the Twin Towers' collapse. That is still a festering sore on the American consciousness and many feel that this mosque would be rubbing salt in that wound.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-35680571081756502592010-05-30T09:16:26.498-07:002010-05-30T09:16:26.498-07:00Were you absent on the day they discussed truth va...Were you absent on the day they discussed truth values in logic class?<br /><br />Let's pretend for a moment that I am in fact an anti-Muslim bigot. That has no bearing on the truth or falsity of anything I have claimed.<br /><br />Are there or are there not terrorist acts committed by Muslims?<br /><br />Do the people committing those terrorist acts or do they not claim to be doing them in the name of Islam and claim to be doing the work of Allah?<br /><br />Are there or are there not specifically Muslim organizations dedicated toward propagating terrorism?<br /><br />An honest look at the world around you can only lead to one answer to those three questions: Yes.<br />Ergo, Islamic terrorism. <br /><br />Your focus on the numbers and statistics ignores the real point. There have been many attacks and attempted attacks on Americans by Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorism is real. Islamic terrorism is a major threat to this country. Islamic terrorism, not returning veterans and NRA members, despite what Janet Napolitano might want you to believe. <br /><br />http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/14/federal-agency-warns-of-radicals-on-right/<br /><br />http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf<br /><br />When one digs a little into the principal figure behind the Ground Zero Mosque, one begins to find a few things that are just a little bit disturbing. Feisal Abdul Rauf is a tireless advocate for Sharia law. <br /><br />Among other things, he advocates that Sharia law should coexist for Muslims in the US alongside our secular law. That patently flies in the face of the founding principles of the US. Religious law has no place in a secular society and the Founders expressly forbade it in the Constitution.<br /><br />Sharia law as it it practiced is itself a species of terrorism, despite what apologists claim. They point to lofty ideals about equality, fairness and social justice but the reality of practice is far different. <br /><br />Countries where Sharia law holds sway is where women are denied their basic human rights. That is where women are beheaded for allowing their ankles to show. That is where fathers murder their daughters for "bringing shame" to the family by refusing forced marriages. That is where women are beaten for appearing in public without a male escort or for speaking to a man other than her husband.<br /><br />Sharia law is used to terrorize and subjugate women to not even second-class status. <br /><br />Rauf told Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes that "United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened [9/11]."<br /><br />Rauf also has ties to CAIR. Despite their public facade, CAIR is a terrorist organization. Oh, they don't use bombs and bullets. But they use lawsuits, threats of lawsuits and complaints to regulatory agencies to stifle any opposition to aggressive behavion on the part of Muslims. <br /><br />CAIR was named as unindicted co-conspirator in the Department of Justice funding case brought against Hamas, an openly terrorist organization.<br /><br />The founder of CAIR, Omar Ahmad, has been reported as saying "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."<br /><br />Even the name of Ruaf's plan, The Cordoba Initiative is a slap in the face. Cordoba, the seat of the Caliphate that once ruled Spain, is a name often used today by Islamic militants when recalling the glory of the Islamic Empire from the years when they occupied Spain.<br /><br />Ruaf is a man who talks out of both sides of his mouth, saying one thing to us infidels and quite another to his co-religionists.<br /><br />Is there any wonder that some people might be concerned?<br /> <br />Your knee jerk insistence on branding anyone who opposes the Ground Zero Mosque as a bigot rather than meet their legitimate objections head on serves only to betray your own bigotry and prejudice.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-35306732294002262292010-05-24T10:07:33.293-07:002010-05-24T10:07:33.293-07:00Au contraire, bdickens, I make no claim whatsoever...Au contraire, bdickens, I make no claim whatsoever. I have not asserted what percentage of terrorist acts I think are committed by Muslims. You are the one in this discussion who is making a specific, numeric claim here--that Muslim acts of terrorism constitute somewhere between 50% and 100% of all terrorist acts since 1980. Yet you are also the one in this discussion who also proclaimed yourself to be the defender of objective, verifiable data. I merely point out that your claim is unsubstantiated, which doesn't jibe with your professed allegiance to objective facts. If you are going to proclaim yourself the king of objective facts, then it might behoove you not to go around tossing unsubstantiated statistical claims. You don't know how many terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims, and since you have offered no data to back you your "at least 50% since 1980" claim, I think it is clear that you are just pulling statistics out of your butt.<br /><br />For the record, the exact number of Muslim acts of terrorism versus non-Muslim acts of terrorism is not something I consider relevant, since I don't judge all Muslims based on the acts of some, and I therefore think that focusing on Muslim acts of terrorism with one breath while claiming not to be prejudiced against Muslims in the next is highly disingenuous. If we can all agree that the Muslim faith cannot be judged by the insane acts of some any more than the Christian faith can be judged by the insane acts of some, then trying to defend the bigotry of some NYC residents who associate Islam with acts terrorism is not consistent with any alleged lack of prejudice against Muslims.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-39371985485680624432010-05-24T10:07:07.882-07:002010-05-24T10:07:07.882-07:00There would be no point.There would be no point.Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-34776901813455236302010-05-24T09:53:49.267-07:002010-05-24T09:53:49.267-07:00I already presented a list - by no means comprehen...I already presented a list - by no means comprehensive - of terrorist acts committed against Americans by Muslims in the name of Islam. So far, I have been given exactly one counterexample. <br /><br />I'm not going to do your research for you. You claim that Islamic terrorism is not as prevalent as non-Islamic terrorism in the US. You make the claim, you provide the evidence.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-40429515575292404442010-05-21T14:14:34.396-07:002010-05-21T14:14:34.396-07:00Okay, just as I thought--you actually don't kn...Okay, just as I thought--you actually don't know. You proclaimed "objective verifiable facts" as the source your statements and then turned around and presented a completely unverified claim in the next breath. It appears that you actually don't know how many terrorists acts have been committed by Muslims versus non-Muslims, but somehow you apparently just know intuitively that more than 50% of them since 1980 have been committed by Muslims acting on behalf of their interpretation of Islam. <br /><br />Not to mention the fact that this involves trying to make an "objective" claim about what is a difficult and a slippery concept. There is no universally agreed upon definition of what exactly constitutes a terrorist act (if anyone doubts me, just consider the question of whether the King David Hotel bombing in 1948 was a terrorist act or not. I would say that it was, but the man who engineered it later and became Prime Minister of Israel didn't consider it a terrorist act at all). As the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." So making blanket statements about the percentage of terrorist acts committed by one group of people (such as in claiming that more than 50% of them since 1980 have been carried out by Muslims) tends to be more difficult in practice than in theory. "Objective verifiable facts" that are neither objective nor verifiable do not make the grade.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-47387793629302749932010-05-21T13:56:18.369-07:002010-05-21T13:56:18.369-07:00Oh, please.Oh, please.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-90583101572797092552010-05-21T09:40:51.978-07:002010-05-21T09:40:51.978-07:00"the fact that the majority of terrorist acts..."the fact that the majority of terrorist acts in the past 30 years have been committed by Muslims in the name of Islam"<br /><br />You must have looked up that objective statistic in some resource book I am not aware of, like maybe the World Almanac of Terrorist Facts. Please be more specific. A majority is anywhere from 51% to 100%. What is the exact percentage, please?Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-54455002465843302372010-05-21T09:29:34.289-07:002010-05-21T09:29:34.289-07:00Not quite, Cindi.
The numbers of Blacks on death...Not quite, Cindi. <br /><br />The numbers of Blacks on death row is an objective verifiable fact that stands independent of any reason that may be.<br /><br />Quite the same as that the fact that the majority of terrorist acts in the past 30 years have been comitted by Muslims in the name of Islam is independent of any value judgement of Muslims as a whole or indeed of the Islamic faith. <br /><br />But some people get so wrapped up in their emotional knee-jerk reactions that they can not seperate the two.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-91599696668792862702010-05-20T21:55:03.548-07:002010-05-20T21:55:03.548-07:00sorry Cindy but that doesnt follow
It may just be...sorry Cindy but that doesnt follow<br /><br />It may just be that they commit more crimes.<br /><br />Now that may be as a result of poverty, lack of education, an absence of role models, etc..etc... but you cant simply say its due to bigotry. <br /><br />That conclusion is also dangerous as it breeds a victim mentality that tells aggressors to blame any of their behaviour on others, or on history, or on anything but themselves and their own choices.Whitefellahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03035831775582969960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-30042368708378836132010-05-18T21:22:17.702-07:002010-05-18T21:22:17.702-07:00"There are a higher percentage of Blacks on d..."There are a higher percentage of Blacks on death row than whites. That is not bigotry against Blacks, it is an objective, verifiable fact." <br /><br />The fact that there are a higher percentage of African Americans on death row is in fact proof of bigotry against them.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798111650128676076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-71750199700657489172010-05-17T14:38:13.879-07:002010-05-17T14:38:13.879-07:00Who is judging an entire faith?Who is judging an entire faith?bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-49161863647517665472010-05-17T09:05:50.562-07:002010-05-17T09:05:50.562-07:00CT, I think we can all agree that fundamentalist I...CT, I think we can all agree that fundamentalist Islam is not a good thing. I feel pretty much the same way about all forms of fundamentalism. The question is whether we should judge an entire faith based on fundamentalism, or, in the case of the mosque in NYC, whether we should judge an entire faith based on the actions of some of certain extremists.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-41609849481676790992010-05-16T20:33:46.795-07:002010-05-16T20:33:46.795-07:00sorry mystical but in my opinion the whole reason ...sorry mystical but in my opinion the whole reason that we now have bigotry against Muslim people is that many acts of terrorism in the last 10 years have been committed by Muslims. This is not to say that all or even the majority of Muslims are terrorists - that is clearly preposterous and it is not being suggested. <br /><br />but I do believe there is a strand of Islamic fundamentalism that is vehemently anti-Western, and this hatred has had a significant impact on the world in recent times.<br /><br />If Mr Dickens and argued for discrimination or opposition to Muslims just because of who they are then that would be bigotry. <br /><br />you can definitely argue that Christians have been just as bad if not worse over the course of history, but just at the moment that is not the case. <br /><br />As for the mosque this is a tricky one. I am sure there will be some fundamentalist Muslims who will see this as a victory for aggression and violence against the West. But hopefully there will be many more who will see it as a victory for harmony and peace and the opportunity to continue cross cultural dialogueWhitefellahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03035831775582969960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-51903967901267033122010-05-16T19:20:24.545-07:002010-05-16T19:20:24.545-07:00Jon, I have not read that book, but what you descr...Jon, I have not read that book, but what you describe of the author's thesis makes sense to me.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-79629651575710204972010-05-16T17:01:09.855-07:002010-05-16T17:01:09.855-07:00Hmm - have any of you read "Dying to Win: The...Hmm - have any of you read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" by Robert Pape. It's getting a little dated now but it's a study of every suicide terrorist over a period to 2003 (I forget how many years), looking at what motivated them and what they had in common. He and his co-researchers concluded that they came from a variety of religious backgrounds - for instance, the Tamil Tigers who invented the suicide bomb vest are of Hindu background although essentially secular nationalists, the World Trade Centre bombers were Islamic, the various terrorist groups in Palestine are a mix of fundamentalist Islamists (Hamas) and secular socialists (the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). What they found in common for all of them was that they saw their country as occupied by a foreign power, and their "side" as both oppressed and powerless in that situation. They even applied this to Osama bin Laden, who is a Saudi - there are thousands of US troops permanantly in Saudi Arabia and he was fiercely opposed to their presence prior to being expelled.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11272544252649766985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-42629818754950808212010-05-16T10:48:01.297-07:002010-05-16T10:48:01.297-07:00Exactly, Mike. The assumption behind the idea that...Exactly, Mike. The assumption behind the idea that it would be inappropriate to open a mosque there is that sincere and faithful Muslims are somehow guilty by association. It is insulting to Islam to suggest that it would be inappropriate to open a mosque there. I doubt that any of the Christians who think it is inappropriate would care to be associated with Christians who murder abortion doctors, and yet they are perfectly willing to do the same sort of tarring by association with a broad brush in the case of Muslims. All the overt protestations of respect for Islam don't really jibe with this assertion of inappropriateness in building a mosque there.<br /><br />The important point here is whether sincere people of faith should feel ashamed or somehow responsible for the evil that is done by others in the name of their faith--especially when people of that same faith were themselves victims of that same evil (which is the case with 9/11, since Muslims were also murdered by the terrorists there.) To answer that with yes is to stigmatize innocent people and their entire faith. It is one thing to protest that you are not bigoted against a particular faith in one breath when in the next breath you stigmatize the faith by tarring it with a wide brush; to claim that any celebration of Islam in the shadow of Ground Zero would somehow be "inappropriate" makes assumptions about the Muslim faith that belie this alleged tolerance and respect for Islam. Trying to have it both ways here doesn't cut it. Do we respect Muslims and their faith and understand that those who commit terrorism in the name of Islam do not speak for the vast majority of good and faithful practitioners of Islam? Or do we not?Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-64629181391369999682010-05-16T10:40:28.901-07:002010-05-16T10:40:28.901-07:00Your use of the word "as well" seems to ...Your use of the word "as well" seems to suggest that you agree that it is inappropriate to accuse anyone in this discussion of being a "jihad-enabler." Thanks for that clarification.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-24158865411871425062010-05-16T10:34:55.340-07:002010-05-16T10:34:55.340-07:00Setting up terrorist headquarters would be inappro...Setting up terrorist headquarters would be inappropriate. I see the Mosque as bold defiance of terrorism by mainstream Islam. To me it says to the terrorists "You do not represent Islam, you do not speak for us, we choose peace."Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-73100761348331260652010-05-16T10:19:11.235-07:002010-05-16T10:19:11.235-07:00And putting a Mosque in the shadow of Ground Zero ...And putting a Mosque in the shadow of Ground Zero and scheduling opening day on the tenth anniversary of 9/11 is a tad inappropriate as well.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-4203602367260734892010-05-16T07:23:20.540-07:002010-05-16T07:23:20.540-07:00If we are all in agreement that Islam is not a ter...If we are all in agreement that Islam is not a terrible religion, then perhaps throwing around an accusation that others in this discussion are "jihad-enabling" is just a tad inappropriate.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29128991.post-82973873505370731682010-05-16T06:26:29.269-07:002010-05-16T06:26:29.269-07:00That would be terrorism perpetrated by Muslims IN ...That would be terrorism perpetrated by Muslims IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.<br /><br />But you knew that already.<br /><br />I don't recall anyone here saying that "Islam is a terrible religion," but then you appear to be capable of incredible mental gymnastics in order to avoid seeing things for what they are. I'm sorry but repeating over and over that 2+2=5 does not make it so.<br /><br /><br />Muslims doing evil things in the name of Islam doesn't make Islam evil any more than Californians doing evil things makes California evil but neither does it remove the fact of the evil and the reasons for which it is perpetrated.bdickenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07528845349747202361noreply@blogger.com